A little practical note before I start
For some reason I have not been able to get the spell checker to work on blogger for a few days. I do suffer with a literacy condition and find that using spell checker helps me overcome this when checking my writing. So no matter how often I re-read and re-check my writing I will still miss bad spelling, words improperly spaced and occasionally words written the wrong way around. I apologize for this in advance.
Why am I ranting about this now
Pandora Blake's, Pandora's blog recently started a debate on feminism within the CP/BDSM scene, which spread to Niki Flynn's Not A Blog, Adele Haze's A Spanking Model Speaks and to a lesser extent on some other blogs. I deliberately did not participate in the comments following these postings because I did not want to run the risk of ranting in another bloggers comment box and because although I think the feminist cause is important and worthwhile I only see it as one group fighting against sexism in general, which I hope to explore here and now.
Not model quality myself
I have never, nor am ever likely to model as a sub/bottom and even if the opportunity arose I do not think that I would want to. So please do not think that I am whining about not being able to model under the same conditions that female bottoms/subs enjoy. I am writing this because the situation amongst many F/m video producers is sexist to the point that it sickens and disgusts me.
Bottom of the pile
As any unattached male sub/bottom discovers early on their journey into the world of CP or BDSM, we are at the bottom of the pile within the fetish scene. Mostly this is due to the fact that you will always find far more males who describe themselves with a small "m" than their are unattached female Tops/Dommes. You start to get used to the tirade of barriers thrown in your way by your fellow fetishists, doors slammed in your face, limited male entry, tickets cost extra for men, the list could go on for ever. Sometimes this just has to be, as in the case of "limited male entry" I doubt very much whether any event would be successful if the men outnumbered the women by thirty or forty to one. A lot of the time it is not acceptable, as is the case for "tickets cost more for men than women" that is just out and out sexism and is not made more acceptable because it is men rather than women that are being discriminated against. This especially irks me when I see this attitude amongst video producers of F/m materiel.
What is wrong
Most consumers of spanking material would be shouting with rage if they thought that female bottoms/subs where not being paid for their work but many F/m producers do not pay their male bottoms/subs, many do not even pay traveling expenses. These filthy, sexist, rip off sites, expect men to come and appear in spanking scenes, that the company will use to try and make money and sometimes they even expect men to pay their own expenses out of their own pockets, HOW WRONG IS THAT?
One particular company in the USA really got my blood boiling when I saw the conditions that they published on their website related to recruiting male models. I will not say which company it is but they also produce material featuring female subs/bottoms who they do pay, WHAT A DISGUSTING DOUBLE STANDARD! After learning this I decided not to buy any of their DVDs F/m, M/f or F/f unless they change their policy towards male subs/bottoms. As I said I will not name the company but I will write a few of the things that they ask of their male sub/bottom models and what I think of them.
Expect to travel to our studio in XXXXXX, XXXXXXXX at your own expense - So they want a sad sap to pay out of his own pocket so that they can make money from him.
Expect to be here less than one hour - They do not intend to be even polite or civil to the guy, they will drag him in, use him for their own profit and then boot him out of the door ASAP.
Expect to give little input - They are not interested in what their victim thinks or feels he is just there to be used and ripped off.
Let me ask you this. Do you not think that if a company tried to recruit female models with these policies, there would not be screaming indignation across the fetish world?
And this. Why should male subs/bottoms be expected to put up with this blatant sexism when their female counterparts are not?
And it may be even worse
This is hearsay but I have heard tell of producers that charge men to be bottoms/subs in their spanking material. I don't know how true this is, I would like to find out if this is so, or just a false rumour.
A couple of shining lights in the dark night
I do not want to just want to rant and moan about the bad producers. Along with pointing out the negative, it is important to promote the positive. One company, who's policies have only recently came to my notice is Shadow Lane who have the policy of paying all their models the same rate, regardless of them being male, female, top or bottom. I do not own any of Shadow Lane's F/m DVDs but I plan to change that soon. The other company Full Force, I hope are are still following their policy that they had on their old site in paying regular male bottoms who appear for them. Since changing sites I cannot find any information on how they recruit or reward their bottoms now but I hope their old policy still stands. These are the only two producers of F/m DVDs that I would consider buying from at the moment.
My respect for models
I like to follow the work of many spanking models because I respect and admire them and their work, I describe myself as a fan but most of them are female. I just could not respect or admire men who allow themselves to be ripped off, used, and belittled by companies who do not reward their male bottoms/subs in the same way that females are rewarded. In fact I despise them I think they are bad examples of male subs/bottoms and do not wish to be associated with them. I would never be so pathetic as to put up with the conditions that some of of these men put up with, they are not like me, I do not want to identify with them. I would like to see more properly paid and respect worthy male subs/bottoms in spanking DVDs that I can look up to and admire for quality performances.
My wallet is closed
Apart from, from the two companies already mentioned, I refuse to buy F/m material. I hope that others will follow that example and drive out the sexist F/m producers by making them unprofitable. Then perhaps we will see more responsible producers thriving in the market and some more decent male subs/bottoms coming to notoriety for people to respect.
Prefectdt
Kink and grief
7 hours ago



13 comments:
"This is hearsay but I have heard tell of producers that charge men to be bottoms/subs in their spanking material. I don't know how true this is, I would like to find out if this is so, or just a false rumour."
I suppose you are talking about something I mentioned on Adele's blog. Well, you can take my word for it that it is true - paying to participate in a video does exist, at least for two producers who I contacted in central Europe (one in Germany, one elsewhere).
In case of the German producer, they would charge 200 Euros per lady (with two in the video). If you are okay with the video being published on their website, that is all (why, thank you very much). If you want to keep it private, you have to pay an additional 100 Euros for production costs.
In all, at the current exchange rate, we are talking about 600-740 US dollars here. Needless to say, they don't pay travel expenses, either. In total, it would have been over a grand for me.
I told them, in polite but very clear terms, that they can forget about the idea. Apparently, it seems to work well enough, because they have quite a few videos on their site. I can't imagine the depth of despair that would make someone agree to be exploited like this, and I certainly didn't want any of it.
I don't want to name names, because this isn't really the point here. The producer is not very well known, anyway (it's not Boys Boarding School). Just take my word for it - it certainly does exist, and apparently it even works.
I don’t have first-hand knowledge about any of this, so I probably don’t know what I’m talking about, but I do wonder if the production companies in question are vanilla outfits that are producing material for the kink market. If that is the case, then maybe they simply don’t understand what makes a male bottom tick, and maybe that leads them to form some prejudicial opinion based on all the predictable misconceptions.
I would be interested to know if there are any CP websites run by genuine scene people who treat male subs as badly as has been described.
Incidentally, before anyone asks, I’m not a sub and unlikely to become one. I’m just interested about all this.
I'm so glad you let it rip, Prefect. I do think it's hideously unfair and sexist and I wish it weren't the case. It just seems to be the way it works globally in the sex industry: Men have to pay for it. Full stop.
And they do, which is why it works. It's sound business for a producer. I mean, why pay a guy who'd be willing to pay a dominatrix anyway? :-(
I'm not sure how this came to be the industry standard for CP and BDSM films, but I'm guessing it's not the case in the mainstream porn industry. (I'd love to hear from anyone who knows.)
I wouldn't lose respect for a guy who was exploited in this way. For some guys it's probably the only way to get what they need. But it does make me sad.
Ludwig - Yes is is from something you mentioned, which means for me to say is "third hand" and therefore hearsay, for you to say it is "first hand" and so holds more credibility. So thanks for commenting about your experince with this matter.
Steve - Unfortunately most of the production are run by people form within the scene. The company I held up as a bad example are more noted for their work in the M/f, F/f work. The big difference, seems to me to be that the female subs/bottoms working in the industry have stood up and let their voice be heard, where the boys have failed to do this. This has lead to a better quality product for the consumer of M/f and F/f DVDs so every body has benifited from this. In the M/f world we are still often stuck with the attitude of "get a pretty top to whip an ass and the idiots will buy any rubbish" I for one am not an idiot and keep my wallet closed to these people.
Niki - As I get older the more I find myself "paying to play" I have gotten over the problems I had with this, now I see it as no different from going to see a proffesional Masseus, one you pay for a massage to get the knots out of your muscles, the other you pay to take a stick to your backside to get the knots out of your mind.
But if I ever feel ripped off I walk away and never come back. Perhaps it is time for the lads to do this with these production companies, both for the models who appear for the bad ones to start to refuse to do so and for us consumers to stop buying from the bad guys.
I would like to hear from a first hand source how it works for men in mainstream porn too.
Prefectdt
Steve - The producer I was talking about is a pure BDSM site, without any "regular porn" content. It's basically a BDSM studio, and they have their own movie site. I contacted them because there is a domme there who I knew from a private session before, and she is astounding with a cane, so I would have loved to do a "professional" scene with her. I would have done it for free, too. But when I heard that they not only sell the video, they also want to make a good chunk of money from me, I discarded the idea.
I have no problem paying for a studio visit or for a "private" video - that's how it's supposed to work. But when they make money from the sale of the video, anyway, then I'd just feel exploited, frankly.
Niki - I don't know this first-hand, but I do believe most guys in the regular porn biz get paid. And there aren't really that many of them. Not to put too fine a point on it, it seems very difficult for the average man to maintain an erection when you have a film team around you, and there aren't that many who can do it as a career. That's why, in regular porn movies, you basically have the same studs over and over again, just banging different girls.
Thanks for the replies, gents.
It seems that what’s missing from this debate is a word from the folks who run the production companies at the centre of this critique. Do any of them read these blogs?
It would be interesting to see if any of them would be prepared to come forward and state their case. I’m sure we wouldn’t bite their heads off.
I'm pretty positive that the people from the German website I mentioned don't read blogs, especially not English-language ones.
They replied to my emails as long as I was still thinking about doing a scene - when I hadn't yet decided that, no, I'd feel exploited and I didn't want to do it. Of course, when I told them about my decision (and I think I was polite about it), I never heard back from them again.
These people are not interested in communicating or in exploring the mindset of the BDSM world, they are interested in making money. I guess we'd have to pay them to read blogs.
Nice essay, Spankedhortic! Perhaps these companies will one day realize that they get what they pay for-- the quality would be better if the guys were treated better. Maybe a lot of male bottoms watch F/F because of the poor quality of some of these F/M sites?
Your post and Mija's comment on Adele's site have made wish the party I signed up for had men and women pay equally. I'd gladly chip in more in the interest of fairness. It's not very much money compared to the hotel and travel costs, anyway.
Thanks Indiana.
I own a lot of F/f material and M/f but very little F/m (two discs in fact and one of those I think I should throw away). I like to see a good performance from a bottom/sub and I also like to follow their careers within the industry, in fact just be a fan. There are many female bottoms/subs worth following sadly I know of few male subs in the same catagory, I'd like to see what the blokes have to offer the world of spanking as well. Luckily from the debate about feminism on the other blogs I learned about Shadow Lane's admirable policy, I will definately be out hunting for their F/m DVDs from now on.
Prefectdt
I am an on again off again adult webmaster, and my wife works as a bdsm telephone counselor and dominatrix. I know quite a few people in various parts of the adult industry.
Most the men in adult content are indeed paid. But, the rate is normally less than the women are paid. This is true pretty much across the board, though I understand gay content is different and have heard that the men are paid more. Very few models are raking in big bucks, but like most sex work it pays more than a regular job. Also, quite a few of the men are themselves the producers, so obviously they get may get more that way, and have other responsibilities too. Getting and keeping wood is a big problem for male models, there are a lot of guys who want to be in porn and few are very successful at it.
Given my wife's profession I hear a lot about the fantasies of male submissives, and have seen their behavior... a good portion of them are in what my wife calls "erection land". Indeed they often leave as quickly as they came. Generally they are embarrassed by their fantasy and want to forget it once they are no longer horny. I can see this being a real problem for producers of F/m content. I would expect the no show ratio on male sub models to be very high, throwing the production into disarray on a regular basis.
A lot of male submissives fantasize about their image being on the internet. Generally they have no experience as a model or actor. Often they have very little experience in real life doing what they want to be filmed doing. Often they are married or are otherwise unable to actually be in porn. Usually they forget about this fantasy once they are no longer horny.
At any events I have been at with a large number of dominant women, there has been trouble with the behavior of male submissives. This is a minority of male submissives. I think that behavior policies are better to deal with it than larger event fees. Basically some of the men treat the event as if they expect every dominant woman to scene with them and indulge his fantasies. I have seen men go up to random unknown women, fall to their knees, and start addressing the women as "Oh, Mistress....." It is normally the men who are most chauvinistic in their every day life who are most insistent that a mistress allow them to serve her.
None of this should be license to treat male models like shit. Any model should be treated as a fellow sex worker, and with the respect for them as a person. There should be an even exchange. Unless the shoot is being done largely to and for the male's fantasy, then the male sub should be paid a reasonable modeling fee.
Unless the studio is not getting rights to the content, I can't see that the male model should be expected to pay.
I would love to see a higher quality of F/m content. I think this necessarily requires male models who are treated, and act, professionally.
I have actually been so disappointed with F/m content and how few studios are doing it well, that I am starting to produce my own. I have started a blog and am planning to sell content via clips4sale, and eventually a premium avs or even a membership site. This is a lot of work, but I think there is a real market for it. I also think it is well in reach for other committed individuals. I would love to see an explosion of small F/m studios.
Hi Thebes, I spoted your blog a few days ago, looking fore ward to seeing more of it.
Thanks for the info about male sex workers and for relaying the info from your wife, it is always good to get reliable accounts.
I hope your plans for production goes well, I believe the industry could do with more material that is influenced from the little "m" end.
Prefectdt
It's unlikely than sexism is to blame here. In a free or even semi-free economy, modeling fees, like any other wages, are determined by the law of supply and demand. Female submissive spanking videos sell better than male submissive ones (judging by the numbers of each type offered), and many men are actually willing to pay to get spanked (how many women do you think there are like that?). We should expect, then, that attractive female models in (relatively) high-demand female submissive videos would command higher rates than less-attractive, male models in low-demand male submissive videos. If wages are so low that video producers can't attract any male models, then wages will rise until they can - simple as that. -- Web-Ed @ chicagospankingreview.org
At the consumer end the law of supply and demand applies too. I can only speak for myself but I demand bottom/sub models that have been farely treated if the material producer does not supply this, my wallet stays closed to them. At the consumer end we have the power of voting by using our money judicially.
Prefectdt
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